Willa madre di Jon non ha senso... Ashara Deyne, principessa della casata per cui Willa lavora, è innamorata di Ned Stark...ma Ned  preferisce la levatrice, con la quale genera un figlio... Ashara probabilmente si suicida per il dolore...e la sua famiglia come reagisce? niente di eclatante, tiene Willa come levatrice, anzi gli da il compito di allattare l'attuale lord di Stelle al Tramonto!

 

se Willa fosse stata la madre di Jon, quindi compagna di letto di Ned Stark, avrebbe in qualche modo arrecato offesa alla principessa Ashara, che infatti si suicida... non credo che la famiglia Deyne avrebbe perdonato facilmente la levatrice, affidandole per di più l'onorevole compito di allattare Edryc...se Willa avesse generato Jon,causando la morte dell'infelice lady, sono convinto che sarebbe stata allontanata da Stelle al Tramonto, se non peggio ancora uccisa!

 

 

as strong as stone

 

Waymar Redfort

...be non per giustificare l'ipotesi su Wylla, (credo anche io sia una scusa); ma la casa Dayne avrebbe visto l'uccisione del grandissimo Ser Arthur, e il suicidio della bellissima Ashara. Non abbiamo prove sufficienti per sapere se l'intera famiglia sapesse di Asshara e Eddard, dopodichè il Lord di Grande Inverno riporta la sacra Spada dell'Alba a Stelle del Tramonto, considerando queste ultime ipotesi e il fatto che i Dayne non sono i Frey. Personalmente ho qualche dubbio sulle tue ipotesi.

...Damien in fin dei conti "buono" o "cattivo" è soggettivo, ogni personaggio è buono e cattivo, l'esempio di Rhaegar è palese! c'è chi lo ritiene un mostro chi quasi lo santifica, Dany per liberare gli schiavi stermina unc asino di altra gente.

...Melisandre insegna per ogni luce c'è sempre un'ombra.

Non ho detto che l'amico americano non cerchi di essere obiettivo, solo che fin dall'inizio ha già  deciso che amore tra Raeghar e Lyanna ha da essere e così, almeno secondo me, infioretta un po' la vicenda con interpretazioni che non sono poi così supportabili…..

Veniamo a quello che mi dici tu Damien.

Certo, la mia teoria può essere clamorosamente sbagliata, però considera alcune cose:

1) Sii parla genericamente bene di Raeghar. Verissimo: tutti iniziano sempre con i ricordi "Ah, quale magnifico principe egli era…â€. "Ah Raeghar! Era così valoroso, così nobile, così studioso, così attarente….†"Il principe Rahegar, il futuro sovrano….â€. E poi, chissà  perché, tutti si interrompono. C'è mai stato qualcuno che ci abbia fornito una notizia intera, esaustiva sul carattere di Raeghar? Mi pare di no, ma potrei sbagliare…..

A me perciò viene qualche sospetto…. C'è sempre un alone oscuro nascosto che sembra incombere sulla figura del principe. Poi sarà  solo una mia impressione erratissima.

2) Lyanna non amava Robert? Può essere, e tuttavia se la sua famiglia glielo avesse ordinato sono convinto che ella avrebbe compiuto il suo dovere, sangue di lupo o non sangue di lupo nelle vene….. Eddard non ha forse obbedito lasciando perdere la sposa che (presumibilmente) desiderava alla morte di Brandon? Sì, ed ha sposato Catelyn…..

3) Toro Bianco e compagnia: saranno pure amici di Raeghar, ma non appoggiano un bel niente. Almeno non viene detto…. Loro dovere è difendere la famiglia reale: punto. Ed alla Torre della Gioia compiono semplicemente il loro dovere….

Poi, sia che sappiano, sia che non sappiano del presunto stupro non è affare loro opporsi a quello che fa il Re…

Forse che il Toro Bianco la Spada dell'Alba e compagnia bella con tutto il loro onore si sono mai opposti alle follie sanguinarie di Aerys? No, non è affare loro, e così accade con Raeghar……

4) Ripeto, Robert avrà  sicuramente esagerato, ma all'epoca, prima dell'influenza Lannister, era un uomo d'onore al 100%! Eddard gli riserva non solo amicizia, ma lealtà  rispetto e fiducia. Lo stesso Jon Arryn e lord Tully…. E se devo scegliere tra questi uomini che credono che Raeghar possa combinare nefandezze e quelli della guradia reale che lo difendono (sostanzialmente sono gli unici insieme ai seguaci Targaryen) io per ora mi fido di loro….

5) Non è tanto la natura meno romantica della vicenda che la renderebbe più martiniana, quanto il surplus di drammaticità  che salta fuori dal conflitto di sentimenti negati e contrapposti della mia versione dei fatti….

Ovviamente, solo il tempo ci darà  conferma dei nostri sospetti.

Però fintanto che non saltano fuori nuovi elementi io mi fido di più della mia interpretazione. Poi sarò l'unico……

Per alcune cose vedo cause evidenti...

1) lo Zio NON vuole assolutamente farci capire com'era fatto Rhaeghar. Perlomeno nei libri (se ti documenti su westeros.org vedi che hanno anche altre notizie. A me è capitato perchè mi è stato chiesto di tradurre una parte sui Targ) le notizie che si danno del Principe Drago sono molto scarse, questo è vero. Ma tutto perchè è volontariamente lasciato al lettore il dubbio tra l'opinione di Robert e quello che dicono, in diversi spezzoni, tantissimi altri personaggi. In questo modo la simpatia che il lettore ha per un casinista come il Re della Mazza cozza contro l'opinione di gente ben più obiettiva (Ned per esempio).

2) Sul fatto che Lyanna avrebbe seguito cecamente quello che la sua famiglia avrebbe creduto giusto io ho qualche dubbio... anzi molti dubbi. Si dice più di una volta (e l'esperto nel suo articolo riporta passi che io sinceramente non ricordavo) che il suo carattere era diverso da quello dei fratelli. Molto più fiammeggiante, meno nordico se vogliamo, meno Stark.

3) Per quanto riguarda i membri della Guardia Reale ti sbagli quando dici che dovevano obbedire ciecamente al principe o che non avevano la possibilità  di accettare o meno quel che il Principe faceva. La ATTUALE guardia reale è al servizio del Re, nel senso che obbedisce ai suoi ordini.

In passato (in particolare mentre era comandata da Ser Gerold) i Mantelli Bianchi agivano al di fuori dell'autorità  della famiglia reale. La proteggevano comunque, prescindendo dai loro ordini.

Decidevano da soli come era meglio compiere il loro dovere.

La questione dell'amicizia non c'entra nulla con la loro carica di cavalieri dell guardia reale. Ma tu credi che il Toro Bianco e la Spada dell'Alba sarebbero rimasti, sapendo di rischiare la vita, per compiere il volere di qualcuno che disprezzavano (se hai dubbi sulle convinzioni morali dei due penso di aver letto un romanzo diverso dal tuo)?! Anche fosse stato il RE IN PERSONA?! Per proteggere cosa?! I conti non tornano. Loro sono rimasti perchè credevano in quel che facevano.

4) Ned stesso parla bene di Rhaeghar. E non capisco cosa abbiano a che fare con la discussione jon arryn Lord Hoster. Il primo è entrato in guerra al fianco di Robert per l'affetto che provava per lui (nessun odio per i Targ) e Lord Hoster invece è sceso in campo dietro il "pagamento" di un'alleanza matrimoniale.

Non sto dicendo che Robert fosse un deficinte o un pazzo sanguinario (sulla questione dell'uomo d'onore dovresti chiedere a Mya etc etc...). La sua avversione folle per i Targaryen però è testimoniata ovunque e da tutti. Come chiedere a Tiryon se sulla Barriera fa freddo...

Ciao

Mi permetto di fornire il mio parere di semplice dilettante per quanto riguarda la vicenda di Rhaegar e Lyanna. Anche perchè ho letto la serie solo una volta e non sono sicuro di ricordare tutto, quindi posso esprimere solo delle impressioni. Tra parentesi, avendola tradotta, la disquisizione di questo esperto mi è sembrata molto circostanziata, quindi genaralmente obiettiva, il problema è che se uno non conosce a menadito la storia, rischia di farsi influenzare. Tutto quello che dice è effettivamente corretto, bisogna vedere se era tutto quello che si poteva tirare fuori. Chiunque, anche inconsciamente, tende a tralasciare i fattori che minerebbero la sua tesi, sempre che ne abbia una in particolare.

Tornando al discorso principale, anche io all'inizio mi ero fatto una certa idea di Rhaegar che me lo faceva vedere più simile ad Aerys che ad un santo. La cosa che mi ha un po' interdetto è stata quella di scoprire che fosse uno studioso, una specie di topo di biblioteca ed avesse un animo più gentile. Eppure poi ha abbandonato gli studi per i tornei e la vita di cavaliere. Qualcosa deve essere cambiato in lui, modificandone il carattere. Quindi potrebbe essere che fosse fondamentalmente una persona buona, ma con qualche avvenimento che possa aver fatto emergere il suo lato peggiore. Sulla paternità  di Jon mi sento spinto anche io su R+L=J, soprattutto perchè le altre tesi traballano. Che Eddard tradisca Catelyn con una serva è pressochè impossibile, con Ashara potrebbe anche essere successo,ma io spiegherei il suicidio più come dolore per il fratello, visto che questo suo gesto di fatto non ha avuto conseguenze su altri. Se i Dayne avessero saputo che Ashara si era suicidata per Eddard, non credo che gliela avrebbero lasciata passare liscia. D'altronde il fatto che più colpisce è proprio la "malattia" di Lyanna e la presenza della Guardia Reale. E' un po' strano che mentre infuria la guerra i tre più forti guerrieri del Re siano alla Torre della Gioia dove c'è solo Lyanna, mantre i figli di Rhaegar ed Aerys vengono macellati. Sarebbe un po' come se Trapattoni tenesse in panchina Totti, Vieri e Del Piero duarnte la finale dei mondiali. Perdonatemi il paragone. Mi sono dilungato troppo, semmai se ne riparla più avanti. Un saluto.

Waymar Royce

non penso che il suo cambiamento sia equivalso al sorgere del suo lato peggiore, poi non ci sono prove di comportamenti simili a suo padre.

Io credo che Wylla madre di Jon sarebbe perfettamente adatto allo stile di Martin, che mi pare si diverta a ribaltare lo stile narrativo classico.

Quando uccide certi personaggi "buoni" colpisce nello stomaco alcuni lettori, perchè non se lo aspettano. Dare umili origini alla madre di Jon otterrebbe lo stesso scopo. Tutti si aspettano qualcosa e invece Martin se ne esce con una cosa banale, senza pathos, proprio come nella vita reale.

Solo questo potrebbe giustificare Wylla come madre naturale di Jon.

Per il resto conosco benino i libri scritti fino ad ora e credo di non aver trovato ancora nulla che contrasti con l'ipotesi j=l+r.

Mentre tutto quello che ho letto sembrerebbe confermarlo.

Un'altra cosa, sulle tre cappe bianche alla Torre dell Gioia. Il loro dovere è proteggere la famiglia reale. Lyanna non fa certo parte della famiglia reale... cosa ci fanno lì?

Fino ad ora l'ipotesi che proteggano un figlio di Rhaegar credo che sia non la più plausibile, ma l'unica che mi viene in mente. Che poi il figlio si frutto di amore o di stupro... è importante?

Infine, Robert si è ribellato per il rapimento di Lyanna, ma il resto del reame si è opposto ad Aerys definito il re folle, non a Rhaegar...

Io credo che Wylla madre di Jon sarebbe perfettamente adatto allo stile di Martin, che mi pare si diverta a ribaltare lo stile narrativo classico.

Quando uccide certi personaggi "buoni" colpisce nello stomaco alcuni lettori, perchè non se lo aspettano. Dare umili origini alla madre di Jon otterrebbe lo stesso scopo. Tutti si aspettano qualcosa e invece Martin se ne esce con una cosa banale, senza pathos, proprio come nella vita reale.

Solo questo potrebbe giustificare Wylla come madre naturale di Jon.

Per il resto conosco benino i libri scritti fino ad ora e credo di non aver trovato ancora nulla che contrasti con l'ipotesi j=l+r.

Mentre tutto quello che ho letto sembrerebbe confermarlo.

 

Un'altra cosa, sulle tre cappe bianche alla Torre dell Gioia. Il loro dovere è proteggere la famiglia reale. Lyanna non fa certo parte della famiglia reale... cosa ci fanno lì?

Fino ad ora l'ipotesi che proteggano un figlio di Rhaegar credo che sia non la più plausibile, ma l'unica che mi viene in mente. Che poi il figlio si frutto di amore o di stupro... è importante?

 

Infine, Robert si è ribellato per il rapimento di Lyanna, ma il resto del reame si è opposto ad Aerys definito il re folle, non a Rhaegar...

occhio...eventuali Spoilers

...Martin riesce a sorprendere i lettori con mosse "argute" certo o quantomeno "apparentemente" imprevedibili, ma seguendo sempre un determinato schema, ricorda che lo zio punta molto sulle "previsioni" che può farsi il lettore,(dalla morte di Ned al destino di Cat fino alla morte di Tywin lo zio le aveva gia mostrate molto prima che accadessero!) la difficoltà  sull'argomento del retaggio di Jon è senza dubbio cogliere le informazioni dello zio come lui le formula....Ovviamente a parer mio eh!

..una piccola cosa sulle Tre Cappe Bianche,potrebbe essere una minuscola distrazione ...il primo compito delle Cappe Bianche è eseguire gli Ordini del Re, e almeno per quanto ci è stato rivelato finora, il Re non era Rhaegar...ma Aerys. Che si suppone abbia gia degli eredi! e riterrei difficile credere che il Re Folle abbia avuto un improbabile gesto di bontà  durante la battaglia e abbia mandato le tre Guardie più temibili a proteggere...la sorella di un "traditore" e il bambino "bastardo" di suo figlio

Vi sembra plausibile che le tre guardie abbiano avuto l'ardire di seguire gli ordini di Rhaegar (se effettivamente le ha mandate lui); rischiando di incorrere nell'ira sempre più folle del Re, e essere in ultimo uccisi?

....se non per un motivo molto più "importante" di salvare "l'amante" (ehehe fa molto Love Story) di Rhaegar e il pargoletto bastardo. Non trovate?

penso che le spade bianche seguissero più gli ordini di rhaegar che non di aerys. strategicamente il loro ruolo era inutile nel compito di difendere la famiglia reale secondo l'ottica di aerys , mentre per l'ottica di rhaegar eseguivano il loro compito.

3) Per quanto riguarda i membri della Guardia Reale ti sbagli quando dici che dovevano obbedire ciecamente al principe o che non avevano la possibilità  di accettare o meno quel che il Principe faceva. La ATTUALE guardia reale è al servizio del Re, nel senso che obbedisce ai suoi ordini.

In passato (in particolare mentre era comandata da Ser Gerold) i Mantelli Bianchi agivano al di fuori dell'autorità  della famiglia reale. La proteggevano comunque, prescindendo dai loro ordini.

Decidevano da soli come era meglio compiere il loro dovere.

La questione dell'amicizia non c'entra nulla con la loro carica di cavalieri dell guardia reale. Ma tu credi che il Toro Bianco e la Spada dell'Alba sarebbero rimasti, sapendo di rischiare la vita, per compiere il volere di qualcuno che disprezzavano (se hai dubbi sulle convinzioni morali dei due penso di aver letto un romanzo diverso dal tuo)?! Anche fosse stato il RE IN PERSONA?! Per proteggere cosa?! I conti non tornano. Loro sono rimasti perchè credevano in quel che facevano.

Secondo me ti sbagli: le Guardie Reali sono sempre state vincolate all'obbedienza. Per un esempio rileggiti i racconto di Jaime sulla morte di lord Rickard...

penso che le spade bianche seguissero più gli ordini di rhaegar che non di aerys. strategicamente il loro ruolo era inutile nel compito di difendere la famiglia reale secondo l'ottica di aerys , mentre per l'ottica di rhaegar eseguivano il loro compito.

...se consideriamo il fatto che le Cappe Bianche seguissero Rhaegar anzichè Aerys (cosa che sinceramente mi lascia un bel dubbio); Rhaegar aveva gia una sposa che (secondo quello che dice lo Zio) amava. La domanda "Perchè mandare le Tre Guardie più temibili a proteggere l'amante e il pargoletto bastardo invece che a protezione di sua moglie e dei bambinetti Targaryen alla Roccia del Drago?" ...per amore? personalmente ho non pochi dubbi.

PS: ad ogni modo per le cappe bianche non viene ripetuto che la "fedeltà  al re" va ben oltre la morte?

Alla fine però tutto gira intorno alla domanda: cosa facevano alla Torre della Gioia tre cappe bianche?

Inoltre se non è cambiata la loro filosofia il loro compito è proteggere il re, in secondo luogo obbedire ai suoi ordini, sempre che questo non vada contro il loro compito primario (una specie di tre leggi della robotica). Questo concetto lo esprime bene Jaime Lannister quando diventa Lord delle Cappe Bianche e chiarisce alcni concetti ai suoi confratelli.

Per quanto riguarda la morte di Rickard Stark, il re in quel frangente non correva nessun pericolo...

forse ha mandato la cappe bianche a causa del principe del ghiacco e del fuoco( teoria discussa in altra sede).

Cerco volontari per tradurre l'ultimo articolo su Azor dato che Waymar sta traducendo i capitoli rissunti su AFFC letti dallo Zio. Inoltre l'amico esperto americano sta sfornando altri articoli.... gli ho mandato un'Email per chiedergli se ne scrive uno sulla possibile origine e natura degli Estranei.

Presto posterò quello su Aegon...

Aspetto traduttori volontari!!!

Posto un'altro articolo della cui traduzione si dovrebbe occupare Xaytar, mentre per quello su Azor dovrebbe occuparsene AlexStark.

Ecco l'articoletto:

Is Baby AEGON Still Alive?

Aegon was the second child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell; just an infant in the Sack of King's Landing. We learn from numerous sources that Gregor slammed Aegon's head against the wall during the sack, crushing his skull and killing him. Gregor himself confirms this in his duel with Oberyn Martell.

However, it has been suggested that Aegon is still alive, possibly smuggled out of the city somehow, and the baby killed by Gregor was a substitute. Supporters of this theory think the grown Aegon will reappear and possibly become one of Dany's heads of the dragon.

The problem with this theory is that there is zero evidence to support it. However, GRRM himself has written several tantalizing letters on the subject. For example, take SSM # 100

Q:Are Aegon and Rhaenys, Elia's children, well and truly dead?

A: All I have to say is that there is absolutely no doubt that little Princess Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed and slain.

Note that GRRM does not confirm Aegon's death. However, he does not deny it happened. From his wording, he is merely saying that there is doubt that Aegon was killed. This could mean everything or nothing.

However, there might be a chance that Aegon is still alive. Could we have met him already? We know Aegon looked like a Targaryen, with silver hair and violet eyes.(SSM, #114) We also know that, because he was an infant during Robert's Rebellion, would be about thirteen or fourteen at the beginning of Game of Thrones.

Who fits this description? One suggestion has been Samwell Tarly, evidence being that his bookishness and intelligence might have been inheirited from Rhaegar. Also, Sam is described as having ‘pale eyes,' which may or may not be pale violet like other Targaryens.

However, Sam does not fit the description. There is no mention of Sam having silver hair, which is such a rare trait that it surely would have been brought up at some point. Also, Sam is a little too old (16 years old in CoK) to be Aegon. Finally, there is no plausible reason why whoever smuggled Aegon out of the city would place the baby in the care of the gruff Randyll Tarly, and also get Lady Tarly in on the secret.

Other suggestions have been varied and implausible. One of the many suggestions that sprouts up from time to time is Daario Naharis, the sellsword who joins up with Dany in SoS. However, since Daario would have to be 15 or 16 at the oldest to be Aegon, this does not seem likely.

So if baby Aegon is still alive and out there, he is most likely a character we have yet to meet. While the ‘Aegon is Alive' theory has merit and nothing going directly against it, there has not been any evidence thus far to support it, as opposed to most of the other theories presented at this site. So, as of now, the question is still very well debatable and up in the air.

Adesso vi posto un'articolo MOLTO IMPORTANTE la cui traduzione credo sia parecchio rilevante.

E' un approfondimento molto lungo sulle profezie e sui sogni contenuti nei tre libri delle Cronache....argomento trattato anche nel sito westeros.org. Il nostro amico Maestro Luwin credo che abbia fatto un bel lavoro.

Per questo articolo si cercano traduttori .....chi se ne vorra' assumere l'impegno credo darà  un grande aiuto.

**********ATTENZIONE SPOILERS**********************

What Do The Various Prophecies Mean?

Throughout the series, GRRM has intigrated several prophecies into the plot. Most come through the characters' dreams, but some come from some other source, such as the House of the Undying. In this section, the known prophecies will be examined. This will not look at subtle foreshadowing, but merely at direct foretellings.

I. A GAME OF THRONES

1) Bran's Dreams

From pages 162-163:

He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned on a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they did not see it.

This seems to be Catelyn and Rodrik traveling on the Storm Dancer to King's Landing. Rodrik is seasick, which is why Bran sees him shaking. The storm is most likely symbolic of the coming war, which will claim both character's lives.

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Here, Bran is seeing Eddard plead for Lady's life. The shadows are interesting. The first and second are obviously Sandor and Jaime, respectively. Sandor has played a major role in both girls' lives, and Jaime also played a role in the fact that Catelyn sent him away in exchange for Sansa and Arya. The third shadow merits a bit of discussion. One theory is that this represents Gregor Clegane, because he is taller than the others. His nickname, the Mountain, is why his armor is made of stone. And the black blood inside his armor may foreshadow the poison that Oberyn uses on him in SoS.

However, Gregor has not played a major role in Sansa's life, as of yet, and it may not be him after all. Others have suggested that the third shadow is bigger because it will play a bigger role in the girls' lives. Suggestions have included Tywin and Robert, but neither seem to fit. For now, Gregor seems like the best bet.

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep intot he heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of the tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?†said Bran, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

This seems to suggest that Bran's fate is in the north beyond the Wall, and he will play a large role in the battle to come. Another interesting dream of Bran's is described on page 730.

"I dreamed about the crow last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.â€

"And why was that?†Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think.†The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so that any of the other crow dreams.

It seems that some secret about Jon lies underneath Winterfell's crypts. For a discussion on what this could mean, see the discussion "Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?â€

2) Jon's Dream

"I'm walking down this long empty hall...opening doors, shouting names...the castle is always empty...the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me...I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream...that's when I always wake.â€

--GoT, pg. 266

This dream is one of the few prophetic ones that Jon seems to have, but he tells Sam that it is recurring, so it must mean something. Again, like Bran's dream, this seems to strongly imply that a secret about Jon is lying in Winterfell's crypts. Perhaps his parentage? This could mean that Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark. See the discussion "Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?†for an analysis.

3) Arya's Dream

Like Jon, Arya has shown no sign of having a lot of prophetic dreams, but an interesting one is described on page 341:

When they had first come to King's Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herself wandering down gloomy halls, past faded tapestries, descending endless circular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father's voice, but it was always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter until it faded to nothing and Arya was alone in the dark.

What does this mean, if anything? It probably symbolizes the fact that Arya is going to be isolated and very alone in the world, and the blood on the walls may mean that she will grow more violent and darker as the series progresses. Eddard's fading voice clearly means that he will be seperated from Arya through his death.

4) Dany's Dreams

Like Bran, Dany has a series of dreams in this book that could be interpreted as being prophetic. From page 100:

Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon,†he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.†Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. And if in answer there was a great hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found her, she woke...

The fact that she is clumsy and awkward point towards her pregnancy, while her bloody thighs and the ripping sound foreshadow her stillbirth. The woken dragon, of course, is obvious.

When she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. It was only her and the dragon. It's scales were black and night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, flame came out in a hot jet. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

--GoT, pg. 228

The black dragon with red blood probably symbolizes the birth of Drogon, who is black and red. The cleansing fire is interesting. On one level, it shows how Dany is learning to cope with her new life with the Dothraki. On another, it symbolizes her walk through the fire at the end of the book. On a third level, it points to her ‘rebirth' in fire, which may suggest she is Azor Ahai reborn. (See ‘Who is Azor Ahai Reborn?' for more details)

5) Mirri Maz Duur's Prophecy

"When will he {Drogo} be as he was?†Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,†said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.â€

--GoT, pg. 759

Most people seem to believe that this is no true prophecy, merely a way of saying ‘it will never happen.' If this is true, and Mirri Maz Duur is to be believed, then Dany can never have children. Of course, the maegi could be lying...

6) The Stallion Who Mounts the World

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor glass. Fierce as a storm this prince shall be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name...the prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.â€

--GoT, pg. 491

This prophecy about Dany's child is interesting in the fact that it shows that prophecies are not set in stone or infallible, and can fail when outside forces are at work. Surely any chances of this prophecy coming to fulfillment was squashed when Dany's son Rhaego died. Or perhaps it was no true prophecy at all, merely the ramblings of a delirious woman.

II. A CLASH OF KINGS

1) Patchface's Song

Both in A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords, Patchface, the fool of Dragonstone, shows an eerie way of predicting events in his nonsensical songs. For example, from page 6:

He began to sing. "The shadows came to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord,†he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. "The shadows came to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.â€He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers ringing up a clangor.

This is interesting only when compared to Patchface's garb. He is wearing a helmet with antlers...just like Renly's battle armor. And it was a shadow that killed Renly. Also, Patchface is wearing bells in his antlers. Khal Drogo always wore bells in his hair, and his death came about from the dancing shadows that Mirri Maz Duur summoned in his tent.

2) Melisandre's Prophecies

In the book, Melisandre provides some foretellings, both from Asshai'i lore and from what she sees in the flames.

"In the ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness will flee before him.â€

--CoK, pg. 148

Most of this has come to pass. There has been a long summer, and the red comet in the sky is a ‘bleeding star.' It has been suggested that Dany fulfilled this prophecy when she got her dragons out of the bonfire. More further discussion, see ‘Who is Azor Ahai Reborn?'

"Ser Cortnay will be dead within a day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future...Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow when Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing. Had I met my brother there, I would have died instead of him.â€

--CoK, pg. 617

Cortnay's death came to pass, just as Melisandre predicted. The next portion is interesting. Stannis assumed that it was an alternate future, one that did not come to pass. However, a figure in green armor did lead a host out of the south to smash Stannis's army at King's Landing. It was Garlan Tyrell dressed in Renly's armor, not Renly himself, but it seems the vision did come to pass.

3) Jojen's Green Dreams

Jojen is one of the few characters in the series who has prophetic visions on a regular basis, and we can glean quite a lot from them.

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to the earth in great stone chains,†he said. "...A crow was trying to peck at the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.â€

"Did the crow have three eyes?â€

Jojen nodded.

--CoK, pg. 437

The winged wolf is Bran, and the three-eyed crow is the one who constantly visits Bran's dreams. The part about chains is a bit vague. It could represent Bran's refusal to open himself up to his warging abilities, which he conquers later in the book. Or it could mean something else entirely, that Bran will discover beyond the Wall.

"Jojen dreamed of you and your fosterling brothers...You were sitting at a supper, but instead of a servant, Maester Luwin brought you your food. He served you the king's cut off the roast, the meat rare and bloody, but with a savory smell that made everybody's mouth water.The meat he served the Freys was old and grey and dead. Yet they liked their supper better than you liked yours.â€

--CoK, pg. 442

The ‘meat' is the news of the Battle of Oxcross, which Maester Luwin tells the children. Bran receives the news that Robb won, while the Freys hear that their brother Stevron died. Yet the Freys are happier about the news than Bran is.

"I dreamt the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Dead men floated in the yard...That Alebelly is one...your septon's another. Your smith as well.â€

--CoK, pg. 522

The black water is Theon and the Greyjoy men, who will conquer Winterfell later in the book. Alebelly was killed in the attack; Mikken stabbed by Stygg shortly after. Septon Chayle was drowned by Theon as an offering to the Drowned God.

"I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a blade.â€

--CoK, pg. 527

4) The House of the Undying

In Dany's trip to the House of the Undying, she hears and sees many things. Some are prophetic, some reflections of her past, some futures that will never be. Let's take a look, from quotes on pages 700-707.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her...One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his red wet mouth, tearing and chewing.

This is commonly believed to represent the beautiful continent of Westeros, being savaged and raped by the four remaining kings who are fighting over it. (Renly is dead at this time.)

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Savaged limbs clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. On a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

This pretty much describes the Red Wedding. The man with the wolf's head and the iron crown is Robb, depicting how the Freys sewed Grey Wind's head on his body.

I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree!

This is the house in Braavos that Dany and Viserys lived with Ser Willem Darry.

Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls.Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-gray hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,†he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes.â€

This is Aerys, commanding Rossart to light King's Landing with wildfire--the scene that Jaime describes to Brienne is SoS.

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon,†he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?â€

"Will you make a song for him?†the woman asked.

"He has a song,†the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.†He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more,†he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads.â€

The man is Rhaegar, the woman Elia, the baby Aegon. This is an interesting scene, as it seems that Rhaegar knows some sort of prophecy about the prince that was promised and a dragon with three heads. Rhaegar seems to believe that two heads were his children Rhaenys and Aegon, but it seems that he was mistaken, as Rhaenys was certainly killed, and Aegon most likely was as well. The ‘song of ice and fire' is equally mysterious, probably part of the prophecy that Rhaegar discovered.

That ‘the dragon has three heads' is accepted to mean that Dany will have two others who will ride their dragons along side her. Some of the candidates that have been put forth include Tyrion, due to his love of dragons; Bran, due to his crippled ability; and Jon, due to the fact that he may very well be a Targaryen. (See "Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?â€)

...mother of dragons...child of three...three heads has the dragon...mother of dragons...child of storm...

‘Three heads has the dragon' is the same thing that Rhaegar stated above. The ‘mother of dragons' is obvious. ‘Child of storm' refers to the storm in which Dany was born. The ‘child of three' is a bit obtuse. It could refer to the fact that she was ‘reborn' with her three dragons, or merely about the collection of trios that are listed below:

...three fires must you light...one for life and one for death and one to love...

The first fire was obviously when Dany lit Drogo's funeral pyre and gave life to her dragons. The fire for death could possibly refer to the fact that Drogon burned the Undying Ones and gave them death, but this is uncertain. It also could mean using dragonfire to bring death to the Others. The fire to love is even less certain. (Note that it is to love, not for love). Perhaps she will light a fire to kill her enemies, or the Others, and she will love it.

...three mounts must you ride...one to bed and one to dread and one to love...

The mount ridden to bed almost certainly refers to Drogo. The mount to dread could be a dragon, which her enemies will dread, or a person whom Dany will come to dread (perhaps Daario?). Quite a few readers think the mount ridden to love will be Dany falling in love with Jon, but this is no more than conjecture.

...three treasons will you know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love...

The treason for blood is most likely Mirri Maz Duur betraying Dany and killing her child. Some readers think Jorah's betrayal of Dany could be the treason for gold or love. However, Jorah accepted no gold for his treason. He did betray her for love of his home, but this seems to be stretching it a bit much, and it goes out of order. Thus, Jorah is probably not one of the other two treasons, leaving the matter open for debate.

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and into his mouth. A tall lord with copper-gold skin and silvery hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name...mother of dragons...daughter of death...

The ‘daughter of death' suggests that these are three important deaths in Dany's life. The first is Viserys dying; the second is her son Rhaego, and what would have happened if he lived. The third is Rhaegar, being killed by Robert at Ruby Ford.

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amid a cheering crowd. From a stone tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...mother of dragons...slayer of lies...

Again, ‘slayer of lies' implies that these are three fallacies Dany will prove wrong. The first vision shows Stannis (the blue-eyed king with no shadow) holding Lightbringer. This seems to suggest that Dany will prove that Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn. The second vision is a mummer's dragon. Dany later tells Jorah that ‘mummer's use them in follies, to give the hero something to fight.' (CoK, pg 875) This could mean that a false enemy is being used to give armies something to fight, and Dany will prove this wrong. Perhaps this is the war that Littlefinger seems to be instigating, or one of Illyrio and Varys's plots. (See "Who Are The Men Arya Saw Plotting Beneath the Red Keep?â€). The stone dragon seems to be the dragon that Melisandre wants Stannis to raise; perhaps Dany will prove this a lie as well.

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons...bride of death...

‘Bride of death.'...are these Dany's three husbands? The first scene is Dany going to the river where she consummated her marriage with Drogo. The second scene is harder to figure out. It has been suggested that the smiling gray lips mean gray + joy, or Greyjoy. Perhaps Dany will start a romantic relationship with Theon or Euron. The third vision is a blue rose on the Wall. Since Lyanna's favorite flowers were blue roses, this vision could point to Jon (See "Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?â€); adding to the theory that Dany will fall in love with Jon.

Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.

Mirri Maz Duur calling the shadows to try and revive Drogo.

A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.

Dany and her house at Braavos with Willem Darry.

Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow.

Dany burning Mirri Maz Duur alive.

Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a man bounced and dragged.

This is what happened to the wineseller who tried to poison Dany.

A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

It has been suggested that the lion represents Jaime or Tyrion--Jaime, because the lion is white, or Tyrion, because the lion seems so small. However, since all the other scenes in this paragraph come from Dany's life, it seems likely that this lion is the hrakker that Drogo killed and made a coat for Dany out of.

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, gray heads bowed.

This is when the dosh khaleen proclaimed that Dany was carrying the stallion who mounts the world.

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!†they cried. "Mother, Mother!â€

This is Dany's liberation of the slaves in Yunkai in A Storm of Swords.

5) Quaithe's Prophecy

Quaithe, the enigmatic woman in the red lacquer mask, delivers Dany a strange prophecy on page 583:

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.â€

Asshai, Dany thought, she would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshai'i give me an army?†she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai I will not find in Qarth?â€

"Truth,†said the woman in the mask.

This is a strange quote. Some readers think that Dany will journey to Asshai for some purpose before invading Westeros. Others have interpreted the line to mean that Dany will sail around the world via the Sunset Sea, a feat never before accomplished, and attack Westeros from the west.

III. A STORM OF SWORDS

1) The Ghost of High Heart's Dreams

An old crone who lives on the hill of High Heart, this ‘ghost' seems to have quite a few prophetic dreams.

From page 249:

"I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.â€

This is Stannis's shadow come to kill Renly. The stag is Renly's sigil; the heart is Stannis's.

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.â€

It has been suggested that this means that a Faceless Man murdered Balon Greyjoy, hired by Euron. For more on this, see the "How Did Balon Greyjoy Die?†discussion.

"I dreamt of a roaring river, and a woman who was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror.â€

This is Catelyn being tossed into the river after her death, only be to resurrected.

From page 491:

"I dreamt him {Balon} dead and he died, and the iron squids now turn on one another.â€

This dreams seems to hint that there was be some power struggle within the Grejoy family. Perhaps one of them will oppose Euron's claim to the Seastone Chair?

"In the hall of kings, the goat sits alone and fevered as the great dog descends on him.â€

The ‘hall of kings' is Harrenhal, and the goat is Vargo Hoat, who has a black goat for a sigil. He is fevered because Brienne bit his ear off. The great dog is Gregor, the sigil of House Clegane, who will retake Harrenhal and torture Vargo to death.

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief...I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head would burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.â€

This describes the Red Wedding. The wolf howling in the rain is Grey Wind, left outside. The sound of bells are the bells in Jinglebell's hair; the halfwit that Catelyn will kill.

"I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs.â€

This is Sansa wearing her purple hairnet to Joffrey's wedding, where one of those stones will be used to poison Joffrey. (See "Who Killed Joffrey Baratheon?†for details)

"And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.â€

It seems likely that this merely represents Sansa killing Robert Arryn's doll in her snowcastle at the Eyrie. Some others have theorized that the dream actually could mean something else--perhaps Sansa killing Gregor at Winterfell--but it seems likely that the first interpretation is correct.

2) Thoros's Flame Visions

On page 497, Thoros gets a view of Riverrun in the flames.

"The Lord granted me a view of Riverrun. An island in a sea of fire, it seemed. The flames were leaping lions with long crimson claws. And how they roared! Riverrun will soon come under attack.â€

This merely foretells that the Lannisters will besiege and attack Riverrun. We know that Daven Lannister, Forley Prester and Ryman Frey are all marching toward Riverrun at the end of the book, and only the Blackfish remains in Riverrun with a token garrison.

3) Melisandre's Prophecies

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.â€

--Page 289

Well, Dany woke dragons from stone eggs amid smoke from the fire and salt of her tears, so she seems a likely candidate. For a more in-depth discussion, see "Who Is Azor Ahai Reborn?â€.

"Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the heartifre...the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow.â€

--Page 414

This is the men of Night's Watch being attacked by wights on the Fist of First Men.

"More false kings will soon rise to take of the crowns of those who died.â€

This has already come true; Euron and Tommen have taken the thrones of Balon and Joffrey.

4) Dany's Dream

"That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and the melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.â€

--Page 310

This is an interesting dream. The fact that the armies are armored in ice could signify that the Others will reach the Trident and Dany will fly a dragon to meet them there. Or perhaps the Trident locale is simply because Rhaegar died there, and the dream merely means Dany will fly her dragon to fight the Others.

5) Jojen's Dream

"It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts.â€

"The wolves will come again,†said Jojen solemnly.

"And how would you be knowing, boy?â€

"I dreamed it.â€

--pg. 277

This could mean that someday a Stark will rule at Winterfell again. Or it could just signify that the Starks will rise to be powerful again, as opposed to their bleak situation at the end of the book.

6) Patchface's Song

Like in A Clash of Kings, in this book Patchface again sings a nonsensical song that seems to have a deeper prophetical meaning. From page 117:

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye.â€

This seems eerily like the situation at the Red Wedding--the fool is Jinglebell, the king is Robb, the maiden is Roslin, and the bridegroom is Edmure, who is put into chains.